tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post3250259561603270843..comments2020-08-22T19:58:02.811+01:00Comments on Constitutions of Clarendon: Thomas Saga: The Pope Discusses Constitutions of Clarendon at Sens, 1164Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-82075624959447234012014-12-26T18:42:51.196+00:002014-12-26T18:42:51.196+00:00The following thesis lists the many different Rich...The following thesis lists the many different Richard Brito's listed at this time<br /><br />Title: The Court and Household of King Henry II, 1154-1189 Author: Lally, J. Awarding Body: University of Liverpool Current Institution: University of Liverpool Date of Award: 1970<br />http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.509200CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-53518762715693592872014-06-02T06:30:41.444+01:002014-06-02T06:30:41.444+01:00You have confused the adverb "Clam" with...You have confused the adverb "Clam" with the verb "Clamo" <br /><br />http://www.reed.utoronto.ca/cwl/cwl.all.html#C<br /><br />clamo, -are, -aui, -atum v tr 1. cry out, hence announce EK827/40; 2. to make a claim (used of rights in property or the like) 40/36, etc; L241/22; <br /><br />The word "Clam" in the quoted sentences is an adverb, not a verb.CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-4991627632931038172014-06-02T06:23:39.985+01:002014-06-02T06:23:39.985+01:00The Latin word "Magister" here means tut...The Latin word "Magister" here means tutor, guardian, adviser, people who are not quite regents but nearly so. The "Magistros" here are Henry the Young King's advisors, people appointed by the Henry II to train and advise his son in the art of kingship.<br /><br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=magister<br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-30480078338087711402014-06-02T06:13:24.323+01:002014-06-02T06:13:24.323+01:00The Latin word "Clam" is an adverb meani...The Latin word "Clam" is an adverb meaning secretly, without the knowledge of someone. It is clear that it has this meaning in the sentences referred to.<br /><br />http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clam#Latin<br />http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=clam<br /><br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-42330791368808793202014-06-01T12:25:58.381+01:002014-06-01T12:25:58.381+01:00My researches suggest otherwise; there are more Ri...My researches suggest otherwise; there are more Richard Britos than one at this time<br /><br />http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=34423&strquery=richard%20and%20brito<br /><br />M. Richard Brito<br /><br />Richard occ. as can. of Hereford 10 Aug. 1186 × June 1187 (EEA VII no. 195, and list 36). He may well be identifiable with the Richard Brito who occ. as archdcn. of Coventry, helping to administer the estates of the then vac. see of Lincoln, 1184/5 (Pipe Roll 31 Henry II pp. 124-5; cf. EEA XVI no. 114) and, as royal justice and administrator of the manors of the vac. see of London, in subsequent Pipe Rolls to 1187/8 (Pipe Roll 32 Henry II pp. 83, 93, 107, 124; Pipe Roll 33 Henry IIpp. 29, 77, 87; Pipe Roll 34 Henry II pp. 11-12, 87); he is also referred to 1189/90, but this reference concerns money paid by him to a third party and he need not necessarily still have been in office (Pipe Roll 2 Richard I p. 8). He was made dean of Hereford after 30 Apr. 1187 (see preceding item) but before 30 Jan. 1189, since he witnessed, as dean, an undated agreement between the Hospitallers of Dinmore and Hereford cath. chapter (Capes, Charters p. 33), which was conf. by Garin of Nâblus, prior of the Hospitallers in England, in a ch. dated 30 Jan. 1189 (Capes, Charters p. 34). Garin's conf. may have been issued 30 Jan. 1190 if Annunciation dating was used, though, to judge from cart. St Guthlac fo. 89r-v, the Hospitallers preferred Christmas dating. If Richard is identifiable with archdcn. Richard Brito he prob. became dean of Hereford in 1188, or perhaps 1189. He may also be identifiable with the Richard Brito who occ., without title, prob. 22 Oct. × 12 Dec. 1189, receiving a gr. of the church of Lydiard Millicent from Hubert Walter, bp. of Salisbury (EEAXVIII no. 169). Admitted, as dean, to the church of Marden in the name of Hereford cath. chapter, 1195 (EEA VII no. 200). Commem. 30 Nov. (app. 1 fo. 48v); evidently d. 1201, since he witnesses several of bp. Giles de Braose's earliest chs. (EEA VII nos. 244, 254, 260). His successor was in office by 29 Sept. 1202 (see next item).<br /><br />and another suggested that<br /><br />A Magister Richard Brito was a dean before he became archdeacon; cf. Brooke and Brooke p. 183<br /><br />It is known that Richard Brito, murderer of Becket, was excommunicated by the pope at Easter in 1171. Following this he would have become persona non grata, unable to integrate with the king and others. He would not have been offered ecclesiastical posts.<br /><br />The article <br />ehr.oxfordjournals.org/content/LXVIII/CCLXVIII/337.full.pdf<br />by JEA Joliffe (?1953) <br /><br />suggests there was a Richard Brito in King John's Camera Regis.<br /><br />However, for the time being, I have to conclude, in the Scottish manner, that your case is "Not Proven".<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-54075108623492465192014-06-01T12:23:54.676+01:002014-06-01T12:23:54.676+01:00Dear Tim,
You have begun to offer the references...Dear Tim, <br /><br />You have begun to offer the references that one might need to evaluate your case. One of your hypotheses is that Richard le Breton [Richard Brito], one of the murderers of Becket, the youngest, was offered and took up administrative jobs in the management of the Angevin empire after he had served his time in the Holy Land. <br /><br />He was excommunicated by Pope Alexander III at Easter in 1171 sentenced him to 14 years military service there, <br /><br />You have seen in Eyton's "Court of Henry II ... "page 314 in his his index to that book<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/courthouseholdit00eyto#page/314/mode/2up which references pages 150 216 253<br /><br />It is my experience that indexers are not the same persons as the authors of the original work, the book itself,. They are very separate persons employed by the publishers. Indexers are NOT professional historians. They rely more or less entirely on the literal text in the main body of the work to build their index. They have in this instance found references to a "Richard Brito" and have suggested by their index that he is the very same person as those referenced on <br /><br />Page 150 as Murderer of Becket<br /><br />and two other references pages 216 and 253<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/courthouseholdit00eyto#page/216/mode/1up<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/courthouseholdit00eyto#page/253/mode/1up<br /><br />and further it says see "Archdeacons of Coventry".<br /><br />I am afraid I personally cannot at this moment agree that all these citations are really referring to the same person. Your hypothesis would really be a very significant new historical discovery and contribution to historical knowledge if you were able to prove it further, and convince the editor of a recognised historical journal and the referees of your article of the validity of your suggestion.<br /><br />---<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-79081829202811235912014-05-30T05:57:45.746+01:002014-05-30T05:57:45.746+01:00Which leads me to your point at my comment for Lat...Which leads me to your point at my comment for Latin - under your blog pages for Orders 1170 to arrest Becket the 1951 translation you quote is totally misleading and does not understand history at all - usefully you quote the latin from William f.Stephen p.129<br />"Rex filius erat Wintoniae misi Richardus ad MAGISTROS ejus (regis junioris) H de G et Willelmum filium Johannis UT CLAM REGE cum militibus domus regiae Cantuariam irent" with HYK saying after the event <br />p.149" ago quod CLAM me factum est hoc, et quod nullus meorum ibi fuit....H de G Willelmus filius Johannis venissent (venirent) Cantuariam"<br />The book you quote says clam is knowledge but it is "claim" more properly "proclamation" that is perfectly within H.II "rights" to make a military arrest with the assent of Barons for the Commission of William f.John as Regent of England for HYK because he has "clam" powers but not in the dominium of H.II powers - see Lathams Medieval Latin Word list where he states Clam for proclamation and Magistro is "to rule" the same meaning for a century (eg Magistro Militum) not some modern day vocab of Master or school teacher.....nothing to do with mere knowledge where in fact an envoy was sent to HYK at the same time as Homets Order to keep him informed - as he must if Becket was to be taken to Winchester Court (for which H de G Sheriff) to be tried, imprisoned and detained for distrurbances to the realm or treason by trying to invalidate the HYK 1170 Coronation...in those days military matters falling back on H.II authority to crown his son as the ultimate authority underpining HYK's Court having jurisdiction in England....there is perfect harmony and overlap between Kings ....<br /><br />Latin is the most perfect language at conjugation and precise meaning in the construction of sentences - the problem is not Latin vocab but Lating vocab to current English Vocab of whichever century.<br /><br />At which point I am signing off from this blog, because I cannot deal with your tide of "authorities" that are not authority or a binding scenario or good logic or crystal probability in the context of the 12th C. For us these people who are our relatives are as if they died "yesterday". I do not think your last blog will sit well with the Tracy or Brito families. I take it you are a religious man for the "Customs and Dignities" that are the Constitutions of Clarendon are about Henry I (H.II wishing to reverse all aspects of the Anarchy in his childhood years) England and 1164 the only person who did not pass them (I read somewhere Thomas Becket did agree with most of it but did not finally approve them) was Thomas Becket...I return to my start that Paganus f.Paganus (whose Aunt Cecily did marry (see Bracton) H.II brother William Count of Poitou Viscount Dieppe) was ventured on your blog to be possibly behind the Criminal Law in 1164 and Council of Clarendon 1166 as Probatoris Regis.<br /><br />Henry II was loyal to William f.John Tilly d.1174, Eustace f.John Tilly and Paganus f.John Tilly as the 3 brothers who effectively (more than any other family) put him on the throne, H.II brother William marrying Paganus's daughter Cecily ma.1155 - 1164, but history seems to have not been written properly.<br /><br />Good luck to your other bloggers.Tim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-52366758525916370342014-05-30T05:50:02.120+01:002014-05-30T05:50:02.120+01:00Dear Jim
I cannot fathom what "evidence"...Dear Jim<br /><br />I cannot fathom what "evidence" means to you. Knowing Rev Eyton and his team in his works very well (having spent many years checking his Somerset and Dorset works) his use of Latin, finding names of people and land, is superlative, but he makes the error of assigning a title or office quite often.<br /><br />Illustration:- on page 314 (Court of Henry II) WITHOUT doubt (his stylistic written method to identify individuals in the index) makes the career (he states 1170 - 1183) of the same person "Richard Brito" as Clericus Regis (and part time Justice) AS THE SAME PERSON AT PAGE 150 for the killer of Becket, THEN PAGES 216 and 253 (why am I not allowed to state desk job for Cleric - both knights and clerics competing for positions equally) then WITH COMPLETE INTEGRITY AS TO DATES 1184 - 1189 Archdeacon of Coventry pps 272 298. This in keeping with the age profile of Richard Brito, this in keeping with the impossibilty of 2 "Richard Britos" at Court (100 to 200 people), this beyond coincidence his Clerk career started 1170 at the time of his finished military career. Further probability is Nicholas Ralph and Robert all operating in 1170s and 1180s.<br /><br /><br />Illustration: it is plain to see Charters at Falaise have Seneschallos (often 4 as I said, in keeping with 4 Marshalls at any given time, Chief or not) but of <br />4 Seneschals in Eyton NONE have the office of "Seneschal of Normandy" they are all Stewards who happen to be in Normandy - William f.Audelin having been a Tutor to HYK until 1170, the Coronation when all 4 Tutores found new roles this King of England then given "Assessors" (but note Henry II keeps all military control to himself, hence William Marshal his TUTOR in Arms from 1170) <br />https://archive.org/stream/cu31924083944029#page/n205/mode/1up<br /><br />What is being put to you is William Tracy is JUSTICIARY not Steward-Justice of which in Normandy there are many at Assizes or "constitutio".<br /><br />At p.206 of Eyton in 1176 Eyton presumes (mentioning no facts) that William Curci is dead and it is his description of Seneschal Chief Justice - I was going to look up the Normandy Archives (without which no academic or geneealogist can understand the 12th C.) but they (of course) have not been put on the Internet, my inclination is the long written referencing will not help you understand.<br /><br />Illustration: all Courcy family websites have William Courcy dead by 1171. Eyton has William Curci dead by 1175 (the Dapifer refences at pps 78, 112, 177/8 189 (1175) and 190(1175) are all Normandy excepting p.193 at Shrewsbury) the Seneschal refs are pps 186 and 206 the rest from 67/8 to 208 seem to be William Courcy from Stoke Courcy married to Emma of f.Martin Barons of Blagdon Somerset.....it would be convenient if there was another William Curci in Normandy (where often Dapifer and Seneschal go together as roles) but who is to say 1171 to 1175 then the escheat in 1176 for the Honor of William C.which looks like "Honoris de Corone" for the role only (like the Honor of Constable eg Montfort till 1162) is one person, certainly not the "authorities" you quote.<br /><br />I make the point because at page 162 of Eyton he states 3 Justices of HYK as William Courci, William of St John and Thomas Archdeacon of Bayeaux standing in for the Bishop.............HYK clearly having his own Judicial appointments in 1171 as King of England, Duke of Normandy and Hereditary Seneschal of France (little known but very important).Tim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-84182444810274116622014-05-14T18:01:06.829+01:002014-05-14T18:01:06.829+01:00I can find no evidence in Eyton's Court House...I can find no evidence in Eyton's Court Household and Itinerary of Henry II for Richard Brito being "looked after". <br /><br />Mentioned in this book is a Richard Brito, Archdeacon of Coventry, but this is not the same person.CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-5495650200649717592014-05-13T11:19:07.639+01:002014-05-13T11:19:07.639+01:00These murderers of Becket only really had minor wa...These murderers of Becket only really had minor walk-on parts in the total theatre of history and the drama of the Constitutions. Their skill was simply wielding swords doing the dastardly deed, as the "Guardians of Satan". Their genealogy is not fully relevant to our story. We are told they are from important families in the kingdom. That one was a vassal of the king's younger brother, who died of a broken heart because of Becket. That they collectively each owned lands in the West Country. That the Pope ordered them to serve a 14 year "life" sentence with the Templars guarding the Holy Land as penance. Do we really need to know much more?<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-2427401374804351412014-05-12T20:48:02.292+01:002014-05-12T20:48:02.292+01:00Indeed Richard Brito is quite well documented
htt...Indeed Richard Brito is quite well documented<br /><br />http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/fictional_attributed/beckets_murderers.htm<br /><br />http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~brutton/medieval/ancsomerset.html<br /><br /><br />http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/britton/disc<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/historyantiqutit03colluoft#page/543/mode/1up<br /><br />In service of William FitzEmpress the younger brother of Henry II<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_FitzEmpress<br />http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Plantagenet-148<br /><br />http://www.mocavo.com/The-Place-Names-of-Somerset/932679/288<br /><br />https://archive.org/details/somersetpub15someuoft<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-69058499383871522682014-05-12T19:45:37.630+01:002014-05-12T19:45:37.630+01:00Concerning the Heraldry of the 4 murderers and of ...Concerning the Heraldry of the 4 murderers and of Thomas Becket himself the following article uses art produced soon after Becket's martyrdom for confirmation of what they were:<br /><br />http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/fictional_attributed/beckets_murderers.htm<br /><br />http://goo.gl/LbF6cp<br /> CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-79410032801364499202014-05-12T13:33:28.396+01:002014-05-12T13:33:28.396+01:00Tim you have said "please be careful with all...Tim you have said "please be careful with all the Latin translations done between 1850 - 1970 - I spoke fluent Latin, and do not understand why so many people do not know their Medieval Latin vocab and conjugation which is different in context of those periods."<br /><br />I agree, Latin in the Medieval period is wholly different from any of that of Classical Times [Caesar Civil War, Vergil, Ovid, Livy etc.]. The translators of Medieval Latin have many problems. Latin is horrendously ambiguous. That probably suited the ecclesiastical writers of the period. They could argue whatever they had written meant whatever they wanted it to mean. The Latin written in each region was greatly influenced by the native language of that region, so much so that you could argue that their were huge huge dialectical differences for Latin all over Europe in these times.<br /><br />Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' <br /><br />If you see a problem with any of the translations posted on this blog, please direct our readers to it, and any corrections you determine are fit to make.<br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-27616441111693964782014-05-12T10:57:01.499+01:002014-05-12T10:57:01.499+01:00You seem to put an awful lot of weight on Dean Sta...You seem to put an awful lot of weight on Dean Stanley's account<br /><br />Arthur Penrhyn Stanley (1868). Historical Memorials of Canterbury: The Landing of Augustine. The Murder of Becket. Edward the Black Prince. Becket's Shrine. J. Murray.<br />https://archive.org/stream/historicalmemo00stan#page/122/mode/1up<br /><br />http://goo.gl/oXC3aZ<br /><br />... the penitent king and the penitent knight met, in the December of that same year, when, in the fortress of Falaise, the captured king of Scotland did homage to his conqueror, Tracy standing, as of old, by his master's side, but now in the high position of Justiciary of Normandy. ...<br /><br />Stanley uses a lot of archives in Canterbury<br /><br />But the following documents list de Courcy and NOT de Tracy as the Seneschal at this event.<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/cu31924083944029#page/n205/mode/1up<br /><br />https://archive.org/details/cu31924007439213<br /><br />https://archive.org/stream/fderaconventione01ryme#page/n74/mode/1up<br /><br />Richard Welford; Surtees Society (1905). Publications of the Surtees Society. Surtees Society. pp. 212–.<br />http://goo.gl/Q1mTlD<br /><br />Please back your comments with full references so that I can check them out. Please post their references in Google Books or Archive.org or any web pages so that I can refer to them. Presently I am in remote location distant from any significant library.<br /><br /> <br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-43961873244916012552014-05-11T19:27:54.699+01:002014-05-11T19:27:54.699+01:00I meant to say Courcy has no actual documents list...I meant to say Courcy has no actual documents listing him as Seneschal of Normandy 1174 - 1176 - merely that he performed some duties in that type of role - there is no Latin to that effect - we are back to the problem modern day historians ascribe a Title or Office where none existed at the time - there were 4 Justicices around 1174 in Normandy eg also Ridel at this time wikipaedia admits he did some duties as Lord Chancellor but he never was - they still ascribe him the Title. Yes writing your own writs "per breve XYZ" instead of "per breve regis" is a good test to be a RegentTim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-87089983995283032192014-05-11T19:12:21.424+01:002014-05-11T19:12:21.424+01:00With respect to all concerned the DNB reference to...With respect to all concerned the DNB reference to William Tracy as Steward 1174 - 1176 - who are we to say the Clerk got it wrong - he was at Falaise in 1174 in an official capacity for the 2 Charters for the surrender of Scotland by the King in custody there (he had already sworn fealty to both H.II, and Henry Young King earlier in his reign) _ I will look up my reference for the Steward or Justice position 1171 - 1174 - see Eyton Court Household and Itinery of H.II for the 10+ pieces of evidence Richard Brito was "looked after" by being given a "desk job" in the period 1170 - 1190. He in fact is part of the family of Brito as Barons by Tenure of Odcombe nr Yeovil Somerset (well known from Saunders "Baronies etc.") Hugh Morville as his family Hereidary Constables of Scotland had his military duties taken away - lands and office given to his sister, returned 1203/1204 I think - the linked theory is FitzUrse exiled to Ireland, Brito to Jersey, Tracy to Normandy and Morville to Scotland all while they started their (I think part time) 14 year sentance to be Knights of Christ in the Order of the Temple. I think you are right Tracy did die somewhere between Sicily and the Holy Land - it beyond coincidence he founded a House for Lepers in the See of Le Mans. More anonTim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-57068801105658624782014-05-11T15:11:12.597+01:002014-05-11T15:11:12.597+01:00More on William de Tracy's genealogy and the p...More on William de Tracy's genealogy and the problems which present themselves. It's fraught with difficulties.<br /><br />Natalie Fryde; Dirk Reitz (2003). Bischofsmord im Mittelalter. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 230–. ISBN 978-3-525-35189-5.<br />Nicholas Vincent: the Murderers of Thomas Becket.<br />http://goo.gl/SBjHyU<br /><br />King Henry I's Bastard William Tracy<br />http://goo.gl/qS1uFz<br /><br /><br />http://goo.gl/JAPZBf<br /><br />http://goo.gl/CMDzKS<br /><br />http://goo.gl/K9ggNh<br />http://goo.gl/Wc0gDz<br /><br />Historian 1973 Vol: 35(2):238-255. DOI: 10.1111/j.1540-6563.1973.tb01179.x<br />The Murderers of Thomas Becket<br />Thomas K. Compton.<br />http://goo.gl/lsLZHO<br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-76616144260363599702014-05-11T09:56:43.419+01:002014-05-11T09:56:43.419+01:00When dealing with William de Tracy you should read...When dealing with William de Tracy you should read<br /><br />The De Tracy Puzzle <br /><br />See:-<br />http://genforum.genealogy.com/medieval/messages/2546.html<br /><br />Reply:-<br />http://genforum.genealogy.com/medieval/messages/2549.html<br /><br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-28535840931742727112014-05-11T09:39:42.664+01:002014-05-11T09:39:42.664+01:00William de Tracy murderer of Becket
Was a blood r...William de Tracy murderer of Becket<br /><br />Was a blood relative of Henry II, descendant of one of Henry I's mistresses [Gieva de Tracy] <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Tracy<br />http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tracy,_William_de_(DNB00)<br /><br />Genealogy<br /><br />Gieva De Tracy (b. 1068, d. 1100)<br />Was daughter of William De Tracy and Rohesia, born 1068 in Barnstaple dying in 1100.<br />Was a mistress of Henry I, king of England.<br /><br />Son: William I de Tracy (d. circa 1136) [illegitimate] baron of Bradninch.<br />William I de Tracy had one daughter and sole-heiress, Grace de Tracy. <br /><br />Grace married John de Sudeley. They had two children: <br />Ralph de Sudeley, the eldest, and heir, and<br />William II de Tracy, one of Becket's murderers.<br /><br />Herbert of Bosham disposes of him ignominiously in Italy. Others have him reach the Holy Land, dying there [in permanent exile]. Others have him returning to a remote village in North Devon, where he dies <br /><br />Was he ever given a "desk-job" in Normandy in 1171? I don't think so.<br /><br />Some writers have adopted from Dugdale that he was steward or seneschal of Normandy from 1174 to 1176. But this was a scribe confusing the name of Tracy for Courcy.<br /><br />See DNB reference above. <br /><br />His dying in the Holy Land seems to be his most likely ending.<br /><br />Herbert of Bosham always exaggerates, and often makes himself out to be Becket's right hand man during his exile. Always read Becket's other chroniclers for a clearer story.<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-76911338453206107022014-05-11T08:34:45.987+01:002014-05-11T08:34:45.987+01:00Dover Castle
I can find no reference that a Tilly...Dover Castle<br /><br />I can find no reference that a Tilly had ever been a Constable or Castellan of Dover Castle.<br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-68083437912737609312014-05-11T08:21:44.394+01:002014-05-11T08:21:44.394+01:00Morthoe Church and Various Legends
Morthoe Church...Morthoe Church and Various Legends<br /><br />Morthoe Church<br /><br /> Paul Alonzo Brown (1930). The Development of the Legend of Thomas Becket. University of Pennsylvania. p. 151.<br />http://goo.gl/qJGKbv<br /><br />William White (1871). Notes and Queries. Oxford University Press. pp. 171–2.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=f9gEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA171<br /><br />The Western Antiquary; Or, Devon and Cornwall Note-book. 1890.<br />https://archive.org/stream/westernantiquar02wriggoog#page/n213/mode/1up<br /><br />The picture of Plymouth. 1812. pp. 32–.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=ZtEHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA32<br /><br />James Bennett (1830). The History of Tewkesbury. A Short Pedigree of the Family Tracy: J. Bennett. pp. 437–.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=F6sI-4s5BigC&pg=PA437<br /><br />North Devon Magazine: Containing the Cave and Lundy Review. W. Searle. 1824. pp. 146–.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=71EAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA146<br /><br />Ilfracombe as it is, or the Stranger's Guide: with a ... map. E. Lammas. 1839. pp. 20–.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=H5tYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA20<br /><br />Tristram Risdon (1811). A chorographical description or survey of the county of Devon. With additions. pp. 341–.<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=H5tYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA20<br /><br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-60754600601877120592014-05-11T07:51:37.638+01:002014-05-11T07:51:37.638+01:00Richard de Luci
Was no mere clerk, but was a very...Richard de Luci<br /><br />Was no mere clerk, but was a very important figure in Henry II's government.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Luci<br />http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lucy,_Richard_de_(DNB00)<br /><br />In 1154 he was made joint Chief Justiciar of England with Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester.<br />In 1168 he was made Chief Justiciar in his own right after the latter had died.<br /><br />The Chief Justiciar was effectively Regent of the kingdom in the absence of the monarch overseas.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justiciar<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-18207603502847334422014-05-10T00:33:25.621+01:002014-05-10T00:33:25.621+01:00ps Roger de Ackford is in the 1166 Red Book Liber ...ps Roger de Ackford is in the 1166 Red Book Liber Feodorum under William Tacy Honoris Milies Devon at the end last name in front of Oliver Tracy Barnstaple Devon.......and wow full circle Sutton Montis next to Cadbury Castle Somerset is by local tradition the hiding place as safe house for Empress Matilda and Prince Henry (to and from Normandy) - her Laundress was given land in Somerset for loyal service in same period - there is the Somerset story of two ghosts walking from a house in these fiels one of which is Prince Henry as a boy! Thank you for this!Tim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-14489159285797848212014-05-10T00:18:59.210+01:002014-05-10T00:18:59.210+01:00Dear Jim I am grateful for this - may I please tak...Dear Jim I am grateful for this - may I please take this opportunity to quickly review the sources you quote - I am especially interested in what you produced about Traci (more later). After 200 years research my family and others have reviewed all sources from books etc in the 19thC:- there are two main themes:-<br />* It is proven Tilly Gournay from Harptree Somerset and Bampton Devon are NOT descended from Yvery or Percheval<br />* it is on the balance of all (ex post) proof that William Paganus and Eustace who controlled the Western frontier for Henry I from Yorkshire to Northumberland Wales Shropshire Herefordshire Somerset Devon and Normandy from the Castle of Tilly were not related to "John Monoculus" or de Burgh or de Clavering or before based at Knaresborough......but were in fact all Tilly (eg Castellan of Dover Castle 1098) ie Norman blood - kinsman and associates Humez, Bacon and Tankerville.<br />I say the above because the Internet repeats failings in Latin translation, pre 1327 Heraldry (this science ruined by the vested interests of the College of Arms who only have jurisdiction for NEW or DISPUTED Arms after their formation) and, which is exciting, many genealogies of the 12th and 13th C are still yet to be done properly on deductive, associative and conditional probability that does reveal the truth.<br />So you think Alan de Tracy yes Alan the Clerk had some input into the Constitutions pre 1164 - it makes sense Luci and Baileull were Clerks because Luci later a Justice, and as you say excommunicated for writing the Constitutions.<br />My interest is that the Arms at Morthoe, Woollacomb for a William de Tracy d 1322 have both ther Tracy Arms and Argent Cross Saltire Gules - which is the version of the William fitz John I Tilly d 1174 2 Staves or Sceptres flory (magnolia? flower same as HII Henry Young King and Richard I effigies) at upper ends only crossed sinister over dexter red on metal (iron) because he was simultaneously Regent for both H.II and Henry Young King....the point is that the 4/5 Knights who killed Thomas Becket were all given "desk jobs" their Knight status taken away (hence the Honor of Bradninch Devon as de corone honoris military service not a Barony by Tenure in capite was taken from him) William f John knights service for Oliver Tracy Barnstaple, Richard Brito knights service to William f John Weston nr Gillingham Dorset - it clear that William Tracy given his desk job in Normandy 1171 where he took his family and compensated with lands to enable him to be a lesser Justiciar in Normandy 1171 - 1173 under the supervision of William f John Procurator of Normandy and Justice there - his allegiance and favour from his Arms not forgotten until the Eiffgy Monument of 1322 - 1328 - perhaps the present Lord Sudeley might like to read this original research - Wikipaedia is wrong to quote the wrong thinking that Traci and Luci are mixed up in the Justice Normandy year 1174 - there were very few named offices in those days as titles - a Justice was a Justice wherever he sat often in rotation with others, often in different Assizes - I am glad you referred to Haskins who explains this aspect well.<br />Onwards with your great blog - I read it with great interest - please be careful with all the Latin translations done between 1850 - 1970 - I spoke fluent Latin, and do not understand why so many people do not know their Medieval Latin vocab and conjugation which is different in context of those periods.<br />Here is to future contact, yours most sincerely TimTim Tregonwell-Monro-Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10332203777902830515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1856289332689314703.post-58139420043944103202014-05-09T15:11:40.381+01:002014-05-09T15:11:40.381+01:00Lovel
http://goo.gl/8BH0sO
Lovel<br /><br />http://goo.gl/8BH0sO<br />CJD (Jim) Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18291978136120949008noreply@blogger.com